AWD vs 2WD

"All Motor Is Best Motor" (acidicheartburn) 01/18/2015 at 21:10 • Filed to: AWD, seriously some people, are mentally deficient

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What's with all the AWD hate on Jalopnik/Oppo? Seems like there's a huge number of people who have it in their heads that AWD doesn't help at all during the winter and that 2WD with snow tires is infinitely superior in every respect. I really don't get it. I bring up the point that AWD will give you better traction for acceleration in snow and ice and then someone comes along and says that's irrelevant. How is it irrelevant? The entire POINT of AWD and 4WD is to increase traction during acceleration. It's why the systems were invented in the first place. Anyone who has lived in a snowy climate during snow months should be able to understand what it's like trying to climb a steep driveway that's covered in snow and ice without AWD or 4WD. I recently got snow tires for my FWD car (my first time on snow tires ever) and it will not out-accelerate my AWD car on all seasons in the snow and ice.

Does AWD give you better stopping and turning performance? Absolutely not, but it gives you equal ability to accelerate and brake. Our cars use all four wheels to stop because four wheels have more traction than two. Why wouldn't we also want all four wheels for being able to accelerate? I'm not talking about being able to speed. I'm talking about simply driving at all. Merely pulling away from a stopsign on a slight incline becomes a measure in careful throttle modulation when you're in a 2WD car, snow tires or not. In many cases you simply cannot move your car at all on a snowy hill or incline without it, snow tires or not.

Now, there are certainly idiots out there who buy an AWD or 4WD car and believe it makes them invincible on the road, and I totally get why people bash AWD in that respect, but it makes no sense to adopt a "2WD with snow tires is always better" mentality. Yes, a 2WD with snow tires will be safer with regards to braking and turning than AWD + all seasons, but it is not the end-all be-all like some people make it out to be. With that being said, I would rather be in 2WD + snow tires than AWD + all seasons, but AWD and 4WD have their merits which should not be discounted.

jkm7680 > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:11

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I haven't really seen much of it.

But RWD sucks in the snow, and FWD isn't the greatest in the snow. 4wd and AWD are the only serious ways to handle snow.

All Motor Is Best Motor > jkm7680 01/18/2015 at 21:13

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There's a whole load of AWD bashing to be found in this post which got shared to the front page: http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/why-reviews-ar…

And I've seen a lot of it elsewhere, both on the front page, and on Oppo.

Jedidiah > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:14

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The problem is that you went to the front page. Rationality breaks down there.

jkm7680 > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:15

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Well, They can enjoy their RWD in the snow.

All Motor Is Best Motor > Jedidiah 01/18/2015 at 21:15

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I've seen the same kind of mentality from some Oppo posters. But you're right, there's a lot of YouTube comment idiocy that makes the front page.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:19

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I like AWD, But it works too well therfore its boring to me. Things gotta have problems to make them interesting, and RWD problems are less expensive than AWD/4WD Problems.

But this is just one man's opinion, it should not be taken as fact

All Motor Is Best Motor > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 01/18/2015 at 21:20

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That, I understand. It's when people dismiss AWD and 4WD entirely that bothers me.

Brian Silvestro > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:21

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That post should not have been FP'd.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:22

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Ya those people are idiots.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:22

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During the last bad snow storm here, I just threw some old boxes of glue in the bed of my 2wd Toyota and it did great. I even picked up my wife who was trapped at her work, the only cars left on the road were old ass Sierras, some Subarus, and the token 4wd Civic wagon.

Granted I was going 20mph or slower, because I'm in a goddamn RWD truck on several inches of sleet, slush, ice, snow.

44444444444 > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:24

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Every post 2006 Volvo is proactive AWD which obviates the wheelspin to get AWD argument. And even reactive AWD reacts in milliseconds. AWD wins every time.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > jkm7680 01/18/2015 at 21:24

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The Amount of Suck RWD has in the snow Depends on the transmission and driving skill, but ya they will always suck to some degree

All Motor Is Best Motor > Brian Silvestro 01/18/2015 at 21:26

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It really shouldn't have. I got about halfway when I said to myself "this is inane idiocy". I think the original intent of the article is a sound idea, but the way it was expressed is entirely full of false generalizations about how AWD is stupid and does nothing good. What amazes me is the mindless sheep mentality that so many people seem to adopt when something gets posted to the FP. Suddenly a whole bunch of people are agreeing with something stupid just because it was made "official".

PS9 > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 01/18/2015 at 21:26

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You sound like the perfect candidate for Alfa Romeo ownership! Why not come down to my used Alfa dealership for a test-look?

It would be a test-drive instead but...well, you know...

OPPOsaurus WRX > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:29

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thats y u just do awd with snow tires and end the argument all together

All Motor Is Best Motor > OPPOsaurus WRX 01/18/2015 at 21:36

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This is true. AWD/4WD + snow tires is the ultimate solution for reduced traction driving conditions.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > PS9 01/18/2015 at 21:36

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Lol, I actually want an MGB. But with the level of attention I give my Ranger, I probably would be a very good Classic British/Italian Sportscar owner.

I own dead car brands only > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:40

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I have no hate for how the driven wheels are driven.

I just simply go by the mentality that if my car, a 2011 Saab 9-5 on snows, cannot get around safely, I shouldn't be on the road.My road usually is a good test. If I cant get around on that road, I turn around and go home.

Justin Hughes > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:41

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AWD.

Studded snow tires.

Honda Civic Wagon.

*mic drop*

All Motor Is Best Motor > I own dead car brands only 01/18/2015 at 21:43

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It's definitely wise not to be driving if conditions are poor, but some people are forced to drive on tricky roads whether they like it or not. Many people live on back country roads that don't see a snow plow until 2 days after snow fall. Simply not driving to work or home is not an option.

Brian Silvestro > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:43

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yeah that guy that wrote that is all about everyone is wrong and I am right no matter what

I own dead car brands only > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:45

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I live in the rural country in the only hilly parts of the whole state of Ohio. Yeah, if i cant get around, i sure aint risking it.

dogisbadob > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:51

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The reason for the AWD hate is the extra weight, cost, complexity, parasitic drain on performance and fuel economy, and sometimes the suspension is different and requires harder-to-obtain shocks and other parts.

It also has to do with the way people think they're invincible with AWD and then slide in the snow and crash like the tards they are.

They're also not saying 2WD with snow tires is *better*, just that it's fine/adequate/all you need.

But I do understand some of the benefits of AWD, just that it's unnecessary for most people driving in most conditions.

There's also this:

OPPOsaurus WRX > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:52

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hell yea

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 01/18/2015 at 21:53

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RWD is fun as long as there's someone with an AWD Porsche to help you out when it stops being fun ;)

All Motor Is Best Motor > dogisbadob 01/18/2015 at 21:53

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That Camry represents victory.

Justin Hughes > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:54

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I've certainly learned to be careful about what I write here. As someone who's had some degree of FP success recently, I've read and replied to plenty of comments in the past couple of months since I started posting here. I can tell when something I wrote goes FP not only from the number of notifications increasing, but from the overall quality of such comments dropping - especially the ones "in the grey." Those are written by people without Oppo posting privileges, and who don't seem to read past the FP. This isn't across the board - I get some great feedback and enjoy some of the intelligent chats I have that start in the grey. But others don't know what they're talking about. I think Invaders from the Sixth Planet is the closest I've gotten to posting a rant, but Saturn doesn't exist anymore, so nobody who thinks their cars were crap really cared enough to post.

You think that's bad? Try reading the Facebook comments when Jalopnik shares something there. There was some good discourse regarding Living With A Subaru BRZ , but the Facebook hate was crazy, with most people complaining about how the BRZ is a POS economy car with no power and a cheap interior and how stupid it/the article/I was. That's why I don't touch the comments on Jalopnik 's Facebook page.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:54

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I recently got snow tires for my FWD car (my first time on snow tires ever) and it will not out-accelerate my AWD car on all seasons in the snow and ice.

With apologies to the pilots out there...

Acceleration is optional. Stopping is mandatory. I guarantee you that a FWD model of a car on snows will stop faster than an AWD version of the same car on 3 season tires.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > sm70- why not Duesenberg? 01/18/2015 at 21:54

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Lol, sadly true. I was also being an idiot

sm70- why not Duesenberg? > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:56

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Agree with you 100%

All Motor Is Best Motor > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 01/18/2015 at 21:57

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Nobody is arguing that FWD on snows would stop better. Allow me to quote myself:

Does AWD give you better stopping and turning performance? Absolutely not, but it gives you equal ability to accelerate and brake.

Acceleration is not just optional . That's an overgeneralization. Yes, braking is more important with regards to safety, but making a turn onto another road and getting stuck in the way of traffic because your car can't find traction to accelerate is also unsafe. As is driving up a hill, losing traction, and sliding backwards into traffic behind you.

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 21:59

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the largest volume of venom of AWD hate comes from people where it is really cold, Canada, NY, Minnesota, where like I said, it's bitterly cold for months.

Guess what? The chemistry of winter tires is perfect... For most of the year. I also notice most of them live in bigger cities where I'm sure streets get cleared in short order.

However, if you live where the weather doesn't justify a whole second set of tires, or you live in a place with poorly kept streets, AWD gets you home from work.

It's elitism. That's what you're seeing.

KirkyV > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 22:01

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If you're irritated by AWD drivetrain dissing, imagine how it is for us FWD - yup, we exist - enthusiasts. Man, the Focus RS articles alone...

All Motor Is Best Motor > Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius 01/18/2015 at 22:01

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Exactly. I couldn't find the word for it, but elitism is definitely it.

All Motor Is Best Motor > KirkyV 01/18/2015 at 22:03

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Heh, my DD is a FWD. I'm not a FWD enthusiast but I don't go around bashing it at every turn, especially with how good the FWD hatches are these days.

KirkyV > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 22:09

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Pretty much all my favourite FWD hatches - and cars in general, for that matter - are from the eighties and nineties. But, hey, that's Europe.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > dogisbadob 01/18/2015 at 22:11

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Most modern AWD systems only add 150-250 pounds to a vehicle's weight. My sister-in-law adds that much when she drives my car, and I don't mean in addition to me but on her own. Oversized, aftermarket wheels can add just as much. Yes, weight makes a huge difference, but it's kind of a moot point. Should we all just buy Ariel Atom's with steelies and snow tires to commute with in the winter? Then work out and lose weight until we all weigh 125lbs? Or never have more than a half tank of fuel?

All Motor Is Best Motor > KirkyV 01/18/2015 at 22:13

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America got pretty much none of those European hot hatches.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 22:13

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Acceleration (as opposed to gaining momentum) *is* optional on snow (i.e. you should be accelerating slowly enough to not trigger the TCS). If you want to have an easier time stopping and turning, you don't put a crap ton of energy into the system and then attempt to dissipate it later on.

but making a turn onto another road and getting stuck in the way of traffic because your car can't find traction to accelerate is also unsafe. As is driving up a hill, losing traction, and sliding backwards into traffic behind you.

You know that's your own damn fault for not having proper equipment, right? And using proper judgement? Put the freaking snow tires on, irrespective of what drive system you have.

My point is that I could not care less how a car accelerates in snow. I care about how it stops. I'd rather it creep to 20MPH and not break traction and be able to stop in a reasonable distance, that be able to accelerate like it was only a wet road, and then take longer to stop.

EDIT: Also, the saying I borrowed from is "Takeoffs are optional, landings are mandatory." No one is saying that you shouldn't learn to do a takeoff in an airplane, but if you only have one thing that you must learn, it's be able to land the flying thing without crashing.

dogisbadob > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/18/2015 at 22:21

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An Ariel Atom with steelies and snow tires sounds awesome!

But it's not just the weight of the AWD; it's the other shit that goes along with it, complexity, and then if you ever have any problems with it (in fact, Subaru even includes a fuse to disable the AWD if you need to).

I do hate the oversize wheels, and even the OEM's are using oversize wheels now :( 18-20-inch rims when 15's will do.

deekster_caddy > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 22:26

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The thing is, there is way too much of the population that thinks AWD automatically makes you invincible in the snow. These people drive around with average all season tires and then later discover that AWD doesn't help you turn or stop! If you aren't aware just how slippery the roads are because the magic system keeps you in control while accelerating, then it stands to reason that stopping should be normal. Except it isn't.

I have driven 4WD, AWD, FWD and RWD in the snow. When you've seen how much better snow tires are, the reasons that justify AWD have a lot less weight.

AWD making a difference during 'normal' driving at stop signs and accelerating? Sure but you shouldn't be leaving every stop sign at full throttle.

All Motor Is Best Motor > deekster_caddy 01/18/2015 at 22:36

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I've said nothing about "full throttle" or driving fast. Simply accelerating safely (so that you don't get stuck or block traffic) is a factor in AWD.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > dogisbadob 01/18/2015 at 22:43

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I know right! I just spewed that Atom out in frustration without thinking about it! But note I want one!

Those are all moot points to me. Complexity? Might as well get rid of power windows and electric starters.

AWD is not for everyone, nor do many people really need it, but it has its place. It has pros and cons to be weighed. Just like not everyone needs an F450 Powerstroke dually, or a McLaren P1. Most people only need or want the basics you can get in a Camry, and that's fine.

I guess my point is, there are a thousand different vehicle configurations for a billion different people. Who are we to say what someone else needs or doesn't need?

dogisbadob > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/18/2015 at 22:53

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As far as your last sentence goes, the people who don't want that shit but have to pay for it anyway!

Cajun Ginger > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 01/18/2015 at 22:58

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learning to takeoff was easier than learning to land. ;)

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > dogisbadob 01/18/2015 at 22:59

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Fair point, but I'd still rather not live in communist Russia. I like my freedoms.

doodon2whls > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 23:01

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If your vehicle's powertrain can generate enough torque (given your vehicle's drive configuration and front or rear axle weight) to break traction in 2WD, then you _might_ benefit from AWD. Of course it is much easier to break traction in snow/ice.

Here are a couple of examples:

1) I have a 230HP FWD car that has an 1800#/1100# F/R axle weight distribution. With snow tires, it does just fine. I can safely and effectively drive my little econobox around. I think this is where His Stigness is coming from.... Do I really need anything more ? Nah... Would AWD make my car more tractable ? Absolutely, IMHO, although only incrementally.

2) I had a part-time 4WD Jeep Cherokee with probably a 2100#/1100# F/R axle weight distribution. In 2WD (RWD) mode, it was a non-starter in snow. 4WD was a necessity in more than 2" of snow to operate it safely. Most pickup trucks with a similar axle weight distribution and drivetrain configuration fall into the same category.

So... Do the Audi/VW/BMW fan-boi population _have_to have AWD ? No, of course not. They could do OK with FWD, but the extra tractability and torque vectoring afforded by AWD is not a bad thing. Of course driving your car on marginal improper tires and expecting AWD to solve all of your poor decisions ? That's a little silly - I think that is also part of His Stigness's gripe.

Breaking traction with the rear tires results in a usually undesirable vehicle dynamic stability situation - oversteer. Breaking traction with the front tires results in a more predictable and usually recoverable vehicle dynamic situation - understeer. Of course this is Oppositelock, so we tend to 'like' oversteer, but I would venture a guess that a large proportion of Oppponauts would probably have a hard time recovering from an unexpected oversteer event. Ham-fisted fully intentional oversteer ? That can be fun, but it is hard enough to manage as evidenced by the few videos Opponauts have posted, not to mention the hilarious 'parking lot drift fail' videos that have been posted.

Bottom line: AWD is great, but don't expect your AWD car to perform well with improper tire fitment.

deekster_caddy > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/18/2015 at 23:08

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Most cars don't have traction problems when accelerating unless you are using heavier throttle than is 'normal'. Even at 'quick' accelerations.

AWD also adds weight and costs gas mileage on any platform, therefore is adding waste. Add a little waste to each car and multiply it by millions of cars, and you have a problem.

All Motor Is Best Motor > deekster_caddy 01/19/2015 at 00:11

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I don't think you've ever driven in snow or ice if you think that you can accelerate normally without traction problems in such conditions. I have lived in Minnesota my entire life and have to deal with driving in snowy conditions every year. And I never said anything about every car having or needing to have AWD. I think you need to read my posts a little more carefully.

deekster_caddy > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/19/2015 at 16:08

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I never said you can accelerate normally in snow and ice. Driver's ed teaches you to be gentle on the gas pedal no matter what the driving conditions. It's up to you as the driver to know the limits of your vehicle. Here's a situation from YESTERDAY (while you and I were having this discussion) where AWD isn't going to make a bit of difference, but having snow tires might just save your life:

http://gawker.com/at-least-three…

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > All Motor Is Best Motor 01/20/2015 at 00:31

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there are certainly idiots out there who buy an AWD or 4WD car and believe it makes them invincible on the road, and I totally get why people bash AWD in that respect,

if they see it it must be true. Just like SUVs going through still water leads people that they can cross 3 feet deep raging stream. My family offroads and every summer we have to deal with people unequipped and completely clueless blocking up and ruining trails.